What is it like negotiating with the Russians over the war in Ukraine?
与俄罗斯就乌克兰战争进行谈判感觉如何？
It is a question many are interested in knowing the answer to following several recent rounds of peace talks, which have so far appeared to bear little fruit four years after Russia's full-scale invasion.
在最近几轮和平谈判之后，许多人都想知道这个问题的答案，在俄罗斯全面入侵四年后，这些和平谈判迄今为止似乎没有取得什么成果。
Another round of the US-mediated discussions is likely to take place in Geneva later this week. Ahead of it, the BBC has spoken to Sergiy Kyslytsya, a member of Ukrainian President Zelensky's delegation, who has taken part in the recent military-to-military discussions.
由美国斡旋的另一轮讨论可能将于本周晚些时候在日内瓦举行。 在此之前，英国广播公司（BBC）采访了乌克兰总统泽连斯基代表团成员谢尔盖·基斯利察（Sergiy Kyslytsya），他参加了最近的军方讨论。
According to Kyslytsya, these dealings are business-like and generally free of the sort of political and historical grandstanding seen elsewhere by Moscow.
基斯利特西亚表示，这些交易都是商业性的，一般不会出现莫斯科在其他地方看到的那种政治和历史哗众取宠的情况。
"The military has a better understanding of what is going on in the battlefield," he told me when we met in the presidential palace on Monday morning.
“军队对战场上正在发生的事情有了更好的了解，”周一早上我们在总统府会面时他告诉我。
"It's another thing whether they [the Russians] are capable, or not, of reporting [back] directly…without cooking or changing the information," he added.
“他们（俄罗斯人）是否有能力直接报告（反馈）是另一回事……而无需烹饪或更改信息，”他补充道。
It is not an easy thing to try to end a war. The nature of the battlefield in eastern Ukraine - where thousands of drones patrol and kill over a huge so-called "grey zone" between the two sides, while 200,000 Ukrainian civilians still live in the "fortress belt" cities of the Donbas - makes the technical business of disengagement highly complex.
试图结束战争并不是一件容易的事。 乌克兰东部战场的性质——数千架无人机在双方之间所谓的巨大“灰色地带”上空巡逻和杀戮，而20万乌克兰平民仍然居住在顿巴斯的“堡垒带”城市——使得脱离接触的技术工作变得非常复杂。
"You have to have a clear set of rules and protocols," Kyslytsya said, "and a way to verify and monitor."
Kyslytsya 说：“你必须有一套明确的规则和协议，以及验证和监控的方法。”
Much of this work, he said, is complete, thanks in part to the close involvement of US officials, including General Alexus Grynkewich, Nato's top commander in Europe, and Dan Driscoll, Secretary of the Army.
他说，这项工作的大部分工作已经完成，部分归功于美国官员的密切参与，其中包括北约驻欧洲最高指挥官亚历克苏斯·格林克维奇将军和陆军部长丹·德里斯科尔。
It's obviously not in Kyiv's interest to criticise representatives of the Trump administration, but when Kyslytsya compliments the US delegation for its efforts, he sounds genuine.
批评特朗普政府的代表显然不符合基辅的利益，但当基斯利察称赞美国代表团的努力时，他听起来很真诚。
"We have to credit the Americans for their commitment and their patience," he says, "because they sit in the meetings non-stop. They don't only observe…they put questions and they listen to our answers."
“我们必须赞扬美国人的承诺和耐心，”他说，“因为他们不停地参加会议。 他们不仅观察……他们提出问题并倾听我们的答案。”
Kyslytsya was equally positive about the roles played by Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, whom he described as "not a novice", and billionaire all-purpose envoy, Steve Witkoff, whom he described as "a much wiser person than the caricature image you see in the media".
基斯利齐亚对唐纳德·特朗普的女婿贾里德·库什纳（Jared Kushner）和亿万富翁万能特使史蒂夫·威特科夫（Steve Witkoff）所扮演的角色同样持积极态度，他称他“不是新手”，他称他“是一个比你在媒体上看到的漫画形象聪明得多的人”。
The US, Kyslytsya said, will play a key role in monitoring any future ceasefire, with resources including satellite and other forms of high-tech monitoring.
基斯利齐亚表示，美国将在监测未来停火方面发挥关键作用，其资源包括卫星和其他形式的高科技监测。
"We need someone who will play the role of adjudication, because if there is a violation there should be a third party that is solid [and] authoritative."
“我们需要一个能够发挥裁决作用的人，因为如果出现违规行为，就应该有一个可靠且权威的第三方。”
For eight years before Russia's full-scale invasion in 2022, this monitoring role was played by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe - a group whose limited resources and lack of enforcement mechanisms rendered it largely incapable of preventing an escalation.
在俄罗斯于 2022 年全面入侵之前的八年里，这种监督作用一直由欧洲安全与合作组织发挥着，该组织的资源有限且缺乏执行机制，使其基本上无法阻止局势升级。
"It was quite an achievement [for them] just to have two UAVs flying over the territory," Kyslytsya said. "It's kind of the Flintstones era compared to what we have today."
“（对他们来说）有两架无人机飞越该地区就已经是一项了不起的成就，”基斯利齐亚说。 “与我们今天的时代相比，这有点像打火石时代。”
In comparison, recent reports suggest that as many as 12,000 drones are operating over the single city of Pokrovsk at any one time.
相比之下，最近的报告显示，在波克罗夫斯克市上空，任何时候都有多达 12,000 架无人机在运行。
I asked Kyslytsya, who is also a former UN ambassador, how he managed to sit across the table from emissaries from a leader in the Kremlin who has been willing to sacrifice more than a million of his own men to subjugate Ukraine.
我问曾担任联合国大使的基斯利齐亚，他是如何设法与克里姆林宫领导人的特使坐在桌子对面的，而克里姆林宫领导人愿意牺牲超过一百万自己的人来征服乌克兰。
He told me he'd had years of practice.
他告诉我他已经练习多年了。
"I saw much worse. I spent five years in New York, three of them before the full-scale invasion. I would sit in the room with the enemy on a regular basis."
“我看到更糟糕的情况。 我在纽约呆了五年，其中三年是在全面入侵之前。 我经常和敌人一起坐在房间里。”
One evening is seared in his memory: 23 February 2022.
2022 年 2 月 23 日的一个晚上深深地烙印在他的记忆中。
In the middle of an emergency UN Security Council meeting, convened to discuss the urgent crisis in Ukraine, the ambassador got word that his country was under attack.
在联合国安理会召开紧急会议讨论乌克兰的紧急危机时，大使获悉乌克兰受到攻击。
At the same time, seven time zones to the east in Kyiv, I remember hearing the first distant explosions as Russia's all-out assault on Ukraine began.
与此同时，在基辅以东七个时区，我记得当俄罗斯开始全面进攻乌克兰时，我听到了远处的第一声爆炸声。
Amid scenes of agonising drama, Kyslytsya tried to get Russia's ambassador, Vassily Nebenzia, to call his boss, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, to seek assurances that Russian troops would not invade.
在令人痛苦的戏剧场面中，基斯利察试图让俄罗斯大使瓦西里·内本齐亚打电话给他的老板、外交部长谢尔盖·拉夫罗夫，寻求俄罗斯军队不会入侵的保证。
"I've already said everything I know today," Nebenzia replied, according to Kyslytsya. "I'm not going to wake Minister Lavrov at this time."
据基斯利齐亚说，“我今天已经把我知道的一切都说了。” “我现在不会叫醒拉夫罗夫部长。”
Everyone's lives changed at that moment. Kyslytsya stayed at the UN for another three years before returning to Kyiv.
每个人的生活在那一刻都改变了。 基斯利察在联合国又待了三年，然后返回基辅。
If the delegations meet again in Geneva on Thursday, he'll be there, still thrashing out the contours and mechanics of a ceasefire but waiting all the while for the most important part of the jigsaw to fall into place.
如果各代表团周四在日内瓦再次会面，他也会在那里，仍在研究停火的轮廓和机制，但一直在等待拼图中最重要的部分落实到位。
"The war could be stopped by just one call of one person to his military chief of staff," he said.
他说：“只要一个人给他的军事参谋长打个电话，就可以停止战争。”
"But apparently, the Kremlin dictator [Russian President Vladimir Putin] is not up to stopping the war for the time being."
“但显然，克里姆林宫独裁者[俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔·普京]暂时无法阻止战争。”